hade119
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subject: re: CRAP!
in reply to valkyrie in message #660:
So the government lies to you, and your answer is *shrug*

Awesome...

I just don't believe their bullshit. They have a vested interest in making everyone believe the lie.

Like I said, I know its not healthy, but I also haven't gained a single pound from my daily soda consuption. So why should I be taxed on it, if its all I drink? Its bullshit...

message 661/709 2010-10-30 07:41:18 (-0500)
dilanium
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subject: re: CRAP!
in reply to hade119 in message #661:
Well if there was socialised healthcare I would say you should be taxed on it because it DOES increase your risk for type 2 diabetes (even if you don't gain weight) and with that a number of other diseases.

But there's not socialised healthcare in the states. So... uhm... yea. You're taxed on it because the government is greedy.

message 662/709 2010-10-30 13:14:28 (-0500)
what
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subject: re: CRAP!
in reply to dilanium in message #662:
Hade, whine.
Dilanium, win.

I had margaritas for beer.
message 663/709 2010-10-30 18:43:49 (-0500)
hade119
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subject: re: CRAP!
in reply to what in message #663:
She can "win", thats fine...

All I'm trying to point out is the wool the government keeps pulling over everyones eyes... You guys want to sit there, ignore it, go with the status-quo, and call it "winning", then so be it...

Don't say I didnt try to warn you... Its only gonna get worse...

message 664/709 2010-10-30 22:52:34 (-0500)
dilanium
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subject: re: CRAP!
in reply to hade119 in message #664:
Uhm--- when did I ever say anything about the government lying to you being a good thing?

I actually said it was stupid they were taxing soda because there's no socialised health care.

message 665/709 2010-10-31 03:43:22 (-0500)
hade119
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subject: re: CRAP!
in reply to dilanium in message #665:
Umm, do you get how a reply works? I was replying to What, and her post about how you "won".

I never said that you said that the government lying to you was a good thing. I was just pointing out that its funny that according to What, you "won" that... I think "The Man" won that one, he's laughing right now...

message 666/709 2010-10-31 09:04:20 (-0500)
dilanium
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subject: re: CRAP!
in reply to hade119 in message #666:
You referred to me. And it seemed that you were saying that I had in some way was saying that I had been okay with the government lying.

For that matter- What didn't say that either.

All she said was that you were whining. Which you were. And still are

message 667/709 2010-10-31 14:48:31 (-0500)
hade119
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subject: re: CRAP!
in reply to dilanium in message #667:
You're absolutly right, I was whining about being taxed up the yingyang, since when is that not allowed?

message 668/709 2010-10-31 15:54:27 (-0500)
dilanium
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subject: re: CRAP!
in reply to hade119 in message #668:
Didn't say it wasn't. :)

message 669/709 2010-10-31 22:41:05 (-0500)
valkyrie
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subject: re: CRAP!
in reply to hade119 in message #661:
Since when have governments not lied? It's part and parcel.

I also disagree with you in where the government's best interest lies. Due to the corn subsidies, it is in their best interest to create high demand for cheap corn, which is how we got into the whole HFCS-in-everything mess in the first place. Not to mention the reason behind its continual snowball over the last 20-30 years.

Out of curiosity, do you not support taxes on cigarettes/tobacco products as well? Or do you believe those should be taxed, and why?



Valkyrie

Memento Mori
message 670/709 2010-10-31 23:10:03 (-0500)
hade119
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subject: re: CRAP!
in reply to valkyrie in message #670:
I don't support any of the "sin taxes". Regular sales tax, sure. I understand the government needs money, and thats cool. But taxing the piss out of everything that is "bad" for you is nonsense. People should be allowed to make their own descisions, and shouldnt be forced to pay extra just because they choose to partake in an activity that other find wrong...

message 671/709 2010-11-01 00:02:08 (-0500)
what
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subject: re: CRAP!
in reply to hade119 in message #671:
If chain smokers buy cheap cigs

Then later in life get emphysema/cancer, and require some sort of hospitalisation

Should you pay extra in private medical insurance levies so you can skip the chainsmoker waiting list / emergency room wait / lack of hospital bed vacancies for your own treatments?

Or would you rather those ignant fuckers just paid more for cigs now?

I had margaritas for beer.
message 672/709 2010-11-01 00:15:20 (-0500)
hade119
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subject: re: CRAP!
in reply to what in message #672:
People are buying expensive cigarettes now. They price isn't keeping them from smoking. It's only taking money out of their pockets (that could go to other better uses), and also giving money to politicians to waste on useless pet projects. Do you really think that extra tax money goes to health care? HA!

So, heres the solution. They want to smoke, and potentially get sick? Fine. Let em smoke and get sick. But charge THEM extra for THEIR own healthcare. I have no problem with that. You pay for what you need, its as simple as that.

message 673/709 2010-11-01 00:34:36 (-0500)
what
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subject: re: CRAP!
in reply to hade119 in message #673:
And can you tell me a percentage of patients who get treated for free despite lack of payment?

There are plenty of babymamas out there who are deliberately waiting in poverty for their medical bills to be written off by debt collectors. Criminals, illegal immigrants, the uninsured who arrive straight off the street almost dead.

You can't say the cost of supporting others just magically gets charged to, and paid by them. It does in theory, but the Hippocratic oath ensures a lot of 'free' treatment to non payers at the cost of those who do pay. They will buy the expensive cigs, last long enough to pass out yet get hospitalised in old age, and get some treatment partially subsidised by whatever the hospital charges good payers like yourself.

Or we could make it simpler - what if the smoker was a veteran? Does that mean the VA no longer covers smoking veterans and they pay for emphysema treatments out of their own pocket? Is it fair you should pay more tax for Sgt Bloggs the Smoker because he's dumb enough to smoke? Is it fair Sgt Bloggs takes up bedspace that could be used for other vets?

FAR easier to just charge those dumb enough to smoke at the initial transaction. You're absolutely right, the money could go to better uses! The smokers could stop smoking and spend it on something healthy. Don't want sin tax to be wasted by politicians? Then quit.

The law is love made public. Don't like your parents rules? Move out of home. Don't like the law? Let's see you move countries.

I had margaritas for beer.
message 674/709 2010-11-01 02:00:58 (-0500)
hade119
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subject: re: CRAP!
in reply to what in message #674:
Well, what about the cigarette bans?

Fine, lets charge em exorbanent taxes to smoke... But now lets also ban them from smoking: ANYWHERE...

How is that fair?

You're the one talking about fairness. Why should smokers be persecuted when OUTSIDE. I think outside (and hell, some inside spaces) should be fair game for EVERYONES use, including smokers...

message 675/709 2010-11-01 10:56:26 (-0500)
valkyrie
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subject: re: CRAP!
in reply to hade119 in message #675:
Dude. Seriously? That's your defense?

Hello, second-hand smoke. There's your argument about fairness.





Valkyrie

Memento Mori
message 676/709 2010-11-01 11:21:56 (-0500)
hade119
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subject: re: CRAP!
in reply to valkyrie in message #676:
Hello, FRESH AIR!

The smoke disipates within seconds. You might SMELL a little bit of it, but you certainly won't get enough of it to be harmful. Also, that argument goes back to the Government lying to you. All the "poisons" they claim are in cigarette smoke are in MINISCULE amounts. You'd have to chain-smoke numbers like 10,000 cigarettes to get to levels OSHA deems over "acceptable exposure". The bad air in most citys in probably more dangerous for you then walking past a smoker in the park.

And ok, fine, how about not a full out ban? How about smoking sections outside? Even this I think is too restrictive, but, it would also be a FAIR compromize.

message 677/709 2010-11-01 11:36:40 (-0500)
hade119
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subject: re: CRAP!
in reply to what in message #672:
Also, NYS constantly jacking up the price of cigarettes ($12.50 now) much higher then surrounding areas is also adding to Organized Crime.

Untaxed cigarettes are becoming more and more prevalent all over the city. And guess whos getting rich off it? Thats right, the Mob and other smugglers... Is that really better?

message 678/709 2010-11-01 11:46:21 (-0500)
hade119
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subject: re: CRAP!
in reply to valkyrie in message #676:
About 90% of secondary smoke is composed of water vapor and ordinary air with a minor amount of carbon dioxide. The volume of water vapor of second hand smoke becomes even larger as it qickly disperses into the air,depending upon the humidity factors within a set location indoors or outdoors. Exhaled smoke from a smoker will provide 20% more water vapor to the smoke as it exists the smokers mouth.

4 % is carbon monoxide.

6 % is those supposed 4,000 chemicals to be found in tobacco smoke. Unfortunatley for the smoke free advocates these supposed chemicals are more theorized than actually found.What is found is so small to even call them threats to humans is beyond belief.Nanograms,picograms and femptograms......
(1989 Report of the Surgeon General p. 80).

According to independent Public and Health Policy Research group, Littlewood & Fennel of Austin, Tx, on the subject of secondhand smoke........

They did the figures for what it takes to meet all of OSHA'S minimum PEL'S on shs/ets.......Did it ever set the debate on fire.

They concluded that:

All this is in a small sealed room 9x20 and must occur in ONE HOUR.

For Benzo[a]pyrene, 222,000 cigarettes

"For Acetone, 118,000 cigarettes

"Toluene would require 50,000 packs of simultaneously smoldering cigarettes.

Acetaldehyde or Hydrazine, more than 14,000 smokers would need to light up.

"For Hydroquinone, "only" 1250 cigarettes

For arsenic 2 million 500,000 smokers at one time

The same number of cigarettes required for the other so called chemicals in shs/ets will have the same outcomes.

So,OSHA finally makes a statement on shs/ets :

Field studies of environmental tobacco smoke indicate that under normal conditions, the components in tobacco smoke are diluted below existing Permissible Exposure Levels (PELS.) as referenced in the Air Contaminant Standard (29 CFR 1910.1000)...It would be very rare to find a workplace with so much smoking that any individual PEL would be exceeded." -Letter From Greg Watchman, Acting Sec'y, OSHA



message 679/709 2010-11-01 11:58:06 (-0500)
valkyrie
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subject: re: CRAP!
in reply to hade119 in message #677:
I'm fine with smoking sections outdoors. I'm not fine with having to walk through a crowd of smokers on my in or out of out of a building, nor having the ventilation system track smoke in. It also sounded like you were interested in allowing smokers free reign indoors.

There are plenty of health complications, ranging from asthma to migranes, to are problematic when exposed to even minimal levels of cigarette smoke. If someone is particularly sensitive, due to allergies or auto-immune conditions, their reactions can be considerably stronger than the norm.

No disagreement that city air is about as bad as smoking; note that there are environmental air quality controls for a reason. I had a discussion with a doctor once who said that breathing the air in Denver was about the same as 3-4 cigarettes a day. That being said, there are also times in cities where there's air hazards posted, warning asthmatics, etc. to stay indoor as much as possible.



Valkyrie

Memento Mori
message 680/709 2010-11-01 12:14:53 (-0500)
hade119
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subject: re: CRAP!
in reply to valkyrie in message #680:
The thing I'm specifically talking about is that NYC recents banned smoking in all public parks, pedestrian thoroughfairs, and beaches. And the Mayor REFUSES to compromise by maybe making smoking sections. Its bullshit. You're OUTSIDE! Smokers have a right to enjoy the beach and parks too!

Part of the reason you now have to walk threw a bunch of smokers infront of the doors is because anti-smoking people FORCED them there in the first place! You can't tell em to go outside, and then bitch that they are outside! Maybe if it had been ok to make properly ventilated smoking rooms in buildings, this wouldnt be a problem. But no, no comprimise on that either.

Lastly, I'm not for "free reign" indoors at all. But I am for allowing the BUSINESS OWNER to decide if he wants to allow smoking in his restaurant or bar. Food and drink go very well with smoking, and I feel like the business owner should be able to decide this, not the government. Just more intrusion on our rights. If enough people don't like it, and business sufferes as a result, I'm sure the owner will change it, but the descision should be up to him/her, not a blanket citywide policy.

"there are also times in cities where there's air hazards posted, warning asthmatics, etc. to stay indoor as much as possible."

Right, and common sense would tell these same people to stay away from smokers "as much as possible". The world isn't perfect, and no amount of legistlation is gonna make it so. But we all have to live together. Seems like lately, Liberals don't want to do that, they want to control everyone who does not agree with them. Legistlate them out of existance forever.

message 681/709 2010-11-01 18:43:28 (-0500)
what
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subject: re: CRAP!
in reply to hade119 in message #681:
That little synthetic foam filter on the end of the cigarette, yeah THAT.

Does that little synthetic fucker provide nutrients for trees? Does it decompose in the next year? Does it feed the little fishies in the ocean?

The next time you flush a condom or a butt down the toilet,

the next time you toss one out the window of your car so it can wash down a storm water drain,

the next time you wonder why green things don't always grow over landfill,

and the next time a butt or a condom ends up stuck in the nether regions your gf's bikini after swimming at the beach,

you can tell me alllll about why cig butts in public are perfectly fine. They fucking suck. People don't clean up after themselves. Those things are everywhere and they should be NOWHERE. I don't care about an interpretation of second hand smoke toxicity; I do not want any volume of poison around me in a public place.

Drinking might go with smoking, due to chemical reactions of addiction in the brain. But food NEVER goes well with smoking. Smokers have a dulled sense of smell, and now Scientific American has proved why: you have taste receptors in your lungs. If you're busy smoking, other diners - if not your healthy self - will not be able to fully enjoy the TASTE and SMELL of their food.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode.cfm?id=receptors-for-taste-found-in-lungs-10-10-25

Go suck a fart. Go lick an ashtray. These smells, tastes and experiences are not pleasant.

I had margaritas for beer.
message 682/709 2010-11-01 22:23:22 (-0500)
hade119
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subject: re: CRAP!
in reply to what in message #682:
So really, what youre saying is, you're anti-litter, not anti-smoking. Cool. I agree. There should be WAY more trashcans and cigarette receptacles then there are... I say enforce the LITTER laws, and don't make more anti-smoking laws...

You don't want any volume of poison around you in public? Holy shit. You better never leave your house then. Poisons are EVERYWHERE! From naturally occuring stuff, to vechicle emissons, lead paint, mercury in your fish lunch, whatever... Trust me, smelling a cigarette as you pass it in the part should be the LEAST of your worries...

You might not think that an after dinner smoke goes well with good food, but lots of other people do. And like I said, the descision should be left to the business owner. If youre so confident that everyone agrees with you, then the business owner would probably make his/her restaurant smoke free, right? I think you might be surprised...

message 683/709 2010-11-02 07:22:37 (-0500)
valkyrie
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subject: re: CRAP!
in reply to hade119 in message #681:
Smokers have a right to enjoy the beach and parks too!

*thoughtful look* Sure. But it doesn't mean they have the right to /smoke/ there. In CO, medical marijuana is legal, but patients don't have the right to light up anywhere they choose. Yet no one's making a huge fuss about it.

You can't tell em to go outside, and then bitch that they are outside!

Sure I can, if the reason they're outside is so that others aren't exposed to the smoke. In my experience, most smokers are too lazy to bother walking a decent way away from the door. This goes doubly true in cold weather.

As for properly ventilated rooms, it's a lot less expensive to simply relocate smokers outdoors. Putting in the necessary ventilation--hell, even just maintaining the paint!--could be quite prohibitive.

But I am for allowing the BUSINESS OWNER to decide if he wants to allow smoking in his restaurant or bar.

What, they can't vote like everyone else? In Colorado, there's no indoor smoking (except, perhaps, for casinos?), but it was put to a popular vote of the people, not elected officials. A major point of contention was not just whether or not business owners had a right to decided that about their own business, but whether or not waitstaff had a right to work without being exposed to cigarette smoke. As for food and smoking, they only go together when it's on your timeframe. If someone else is smoking while you're trying to eat, it's pretty fucking gross whether you're a smoker or not.

Liberals don't want to do that, they want to control everyone who does not agree with them. Legistlate them out of existance forever.

*laugh* That's not a political thing, that's a human thing. For what it's worth, in my experience, conservatives are usually considerably more controlling due to taking the religious high ground. A lot of liberals at least attempt to see things from others' POV.



Valkyrie

Memento Mori
message 684/709 2010-11-02 23:46:47 (-0500)
what
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subject: re: CRAP!
in reply to hade119 in message #683:
You said AFTER food. Go outside. Go somewhere else. There are plenty of people who think a big spliff, a line of coke, or a crackpipe is just as good. Good for you. Go somewhere else, I'm busy eating.

The US Surgeon General, in his 2006 report, estimated that living or working in a place where smoking is permitted increases the non-smokers' risk of developing heart disease by 25–30% and lung cancer by 20–30%. My mother smoked throughout her pregnancy and the whole time I grew up. I already have the chronic ear infections. I already have asthma, the lung infections and the childhood fillings. What more proof would you like?

We both have the right to choose which poisons to ingest, as long as they don't affect other people. I am actually anti-smoking, but if you want to do it that's your loss..... because laws have it that in public, your smoking will no longer affect me as much.

Just because poisons are everywhere does NOT mean we should do nothing to prevent further use of them.

I had margaritas for beer.
message 685/709 2010-11-03 01:33:24 (-0500)
spadesghost
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subject: supermeh
just wanted to say there is most definitely something to milk/probiotics. i accidentally bought two (rotten) half quarts of raw milk from organic cows, here, locally (organicpastures.com) i drank one, then proceeded to get drunk and pass out. the very next day i had ridiculous amounts of energy and felt GREAT.
that continued for two days, then i had diarhhea of course :p the point is, the natural cures are very valid, even if past expiration date. i didn't even notice until three days later. in case anyone wonders this was two weeks ago. fda warnings my ass. no hangover, feel great, = raw foods work.
period. neither quart was out of expiration date, but they were sour by smell. in pure fact, it may be subjective they were bad at all.
they were out of collostrum, so i just bought raw milk.

dinner/and/a/mess/can/I/rip/your/dress/thoughts/of/you/are/useless/sick/and/tired/of/performing/and/mourning/in/front/of/children/
message 686/709 2011-11-02 19:44:24 (-0500)
what
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subject: re: supermeh
in reply to spadesghost in message #686:
sour cream is... well, sour cream.

what say you of PREbiotics?

You need to speak in signs. My scarf smells like a party.
message 687/709 2011-11-12 06:37:56 (-0600)
what
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subject: got a tried and tested
recipe for jamaican cornmeal porridge, anyone?

You need to speak in signs. My scarf smells like a party.
message 688/709 2012-04-13 23:54:52 (-0500)
chuckster
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subject: re: got a tried and tested
in reply to what in message #688:
Sure.

message 689/709 2012-04-14 04:16:49 (-0500)
valkyrie
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subject: re: got a tried and tested
in reply to what in message #688:
Yes please!



Valkyrie

Memento Mori
message 690/709 2012-04-16 00:12:08 (-0500)
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